Comments on: Attributor’s Recipe for Inflated Copyright Claims: Not All Copying Is Infringement http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html Musings of a techie lawyer Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:03:28 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7-bleeding By: Rich Pearson http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1638 Rich Pearson Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:29:28 +0000 http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1638 Mike - I agree, there is no legal liability but it calls into question their "Don't be evil" mantra :-) Mike - I agree, there is no legal liability but it calls into question their “Don’t be evil” mantra :-)

]]> By: Mike http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1637 Mike Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:56:09 +0000 http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1637 Rich-- You're saying the content could still surface in a Google search but they shouldn't allow the pages to use AdSense? I'm not saying these pages (bellook at least, publisherswiki is down) aren't contemptible -- I'm just saying I don't think Google has a *legal* liability here. Thanks, Mike Rich–

You’re saying the content could still surface in a Google search but they shouldn’t allow the pages to use AdSense?

I’m not saying these pages (bellook at least, publisherswiki is down) aren’t contemptible — I’m just saying I don’t think Google has a *legal* liability here.

Thanks,
Mike

]]> By: Rich Pearson http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1631 Rich Pearson Thu, 18 Oct 2007 04:39:39 +0000 http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1631 Mike, I think you are referring to our Oct 1st blog post - http://attributor.com/blog/?p=21 - and may have misread our intent. Let me explain our view and see if it changes your interpretation. We believe that when an infringement is found, Google needs to do more than just pull the content from YouTube - they need to also remove the host page from the Google index so that the infringing party can't continue to make money via Adwords. To illustrate how automated and widespread content theft has become, I found a few pages that have taken the lead paragraph from Jennifer's Recipe story and surrounded it with Google AdSense links. http://www.bellook.com/food/study-finds-copyright-infringement-of-recipes-online-gigalawcom-7.html http://publisherswiki.com/?p=5231 From the data we've seen so far, this is the tip of iceberg - these pages are automatically created and done so to rank highly in search engines. When you consider that Google makes a money off of every click on these ads, two questions come to mind: 1) How much of Google's $5b+ AdSense revenue is on the backs of this theft and 2) How much traffic/notoriety/revenue is being siphoned off the content creators? I hope that helps, Rich Mike,

I think you are referring to our Oct 1st blog post - http://attributor.com/blog/?p=21 - and may have misread our intent. Let me explain our view and see if it changes your interpretation.

We believe that when an infringement is found, Google needs to do more than just pull the content from YouTube - they need to also remove the host page from the Google index so that the infringing party can’t continue to make money via Adwords.

To illustrate how automated and widespread content theft has become, I found a few pages that have taken the lead paragraph from Jennifer’s Recipe story and surrounded it with Google AdSense links.

http://www.bellook.com/food/study-finds-copyright-infringement-of-recipes-online-gigalawcom-7.html

http://publisherswiki.com/?p=5231

From the data we’ve seen so far, this is the tip of iceberg - these pages are automatically created and done so to rank highly in search engines. When you consider that Google makes a money off of every click on these ads, two questions come to mind:
1) How much of Google’s $5b+ AdSense revenue is on the backs of this theft and
2) How much traffic/notoriety/revenue is being siphoned off the content creators?

I hope that helps,

Rich

]]> By: Mike http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1590 Mike Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:35:58 +0000 http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1590 If you read their blog, Attributor seems to take a stance that Google shouldn't even surface search results containing "stolen" copyrighted materials as Google sells advertising against its search results. It also seems to say that Google shouldn't allow Adwords on any page that might contain copyrighted data. Rich, if you're still reading this board, could you comment on my interpretation? Attributor's stance seems legally shaky, but I may have misread your blogs intent. If you read their blog, Attributor seems to take a stance that Google shouldn’t even surface search results containing “stolen” copyrighted materials as Google sells advertising against its search results. It also seems to say that Google shouldn’t allow Adwords on any page that might contain copyrighted data.

Rich, if you’re still reading this board, could you comment on my interpretation? Attributor’s stance seems legally shaky, but I may have misread your blogs intent.

]]> By: Rich Pearson http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1582 Rich Pearson Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:24:46 +0000 http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1582 Wendy - we seem to be in sync. Attributor's platform provides the visibility and the content creator decides if or how to act. Wendy - we seem to be in sync. Attributor’s platform provides the visibility and the content creator decides if or how to act.

]]> By: wseltzer http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1580 wseltzer Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:05:59 +0000 http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1580 Thanks Rich, I'm still not completely on-board. Someone might intentionally copy, word-for-word, a procedural description of the steps to bake a cake, and yet commit no infringement. The initial poster might prefer a link back, but there's no legal obligation to offer one. If your tools are simply noting these occurrences, fine, but if you're suggesting legal threats or implying that there would be legal consequences based on "copying," I think you're assuming too much. --Wendy Thanks Rich,
I’m still not completely on-board. Someone might intentionally copy, word-for-word, a procedural description of the steps to bake a cake, and yet commit no infringement. The initial poster might prefer a link back, but there’s no legal obligation to offer one.

If your tools are simply noting these occurrences, fine, but if you’re suggesting legal threats or implying that there would be legal consequences based on “copying,” I think you’re assuming too much.

–Wendy

]]> By: Rich Pearson http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1551 Rich Pearson Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:25:34 +0000 http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2007/10/16/attributors-recipe-for-inflated-copyright-claims-not-all-copying-is-infringement.html#comment-1551 Hi Wendy, I work for Attributor and helped put together the study. You can get a little more context for our study on the Attributor blog - "A link is worth 1,000 words" - while I can't say that we found all derivative works, we tried to pull these out of the totals that we shared with Jenifer Guevin. You are absolutely correct about recipes being a tough category to quantify the amount of copying. Like you, we were skeptical of the initial results, but when we looked at the details, we were surprised to find so many word-for-word copies. Digging deeper, we found that most of these sites failed to link back or give attribution to the source. I'm sure some of the copying was done unintentionally and without malice - our goal is to give rights holders visibility into how and where their content is being copied plus a set of flexible set of remedies such as sending a link request as we noted in our blog. I'd be happy to get your feedback and answer any questions you have about our service. Rich Hi Wendy,

I work for Attributor and helped put together the study. You can get a little more context for our study on the Attributor blog - “A link is worth 1,000 words” - while I can’t say that we found all derivative works, we tried to pull these out of the totals that we shared with Jenifer Guevin.

You are absolutely correct about recipes being a tough category to quantify the amount of copying. Like you, we were skeptical of the initial results, but when we looked at the details, we were surprised to find so many word-for-word copies. Digging deeper, we found that most of these sites failed to link back or give attribution to the source.

I’m sure some of the copying was done unintentionally and without malice - our goal is to give rights holders visibility into how and where their content is being copied plus a set of flexible set of remedies such as sending a link request as we noted in our blog.

I’d be happy to get your feedback and answer any questions you have about our service.

Rich

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